Curse

Kaleban · Mar 24, 2010, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by EragonSorceror

I'm sorry, but I really just don't understand what you are saying. Are you suggesting that players who have been playing the game for 5 years and have done everything in PvE 10+ times will stop being bored and will find the game attractive again because they can earn more money? Most of these people already have loads of money and have bought everything that they desire. Granted, some people start collections of the older weapons that don't drop anymore, but if they can get the cash to finish these they have no reason to keep playing. I must misunderstand you, because I don't think anyone could actually believe something that stupid.

Lol, no, nothing that stupid.

The same people who have been playing since the game's inception still play the Elite areas (or some do, whatever). The reason they stick to these areas, and others like Zaishen missions and such, is because the rewards (ectos, Zaishen coins, etc.) are much more valuable than say, slogging to the far western side of the Maguuma jungle in HM.

But if ANet changes up the reward/drop scale such that you'd get about the same amount of rewards per unit time no matter WHERE you played, then a lot of the game would open up to more players.

Basically it would breathe life back into stale areas. The whole Zaishen mission concept is a microcosm of this idea, increasing the reward potential of "stale" areas, which I thought was somewhat obvious and the basis for my idea.

So I'm not advocating earning MORE money/rewards, just the same no matter where you played. As an example, you could probably kill much faster in Maguuma NM then UW HM. The drop rates for good stuff in Maguuma (after a change, such as a really low drop rate of ectos) is much lower than UW, yet because the average player can kill MUCH faster there, the reward per time ratio could be equivalent, if ANet handled it right.

This kind of idea would also make the game more PUG and noob friendly, beyond being lucky with the Zaishen Mission rotations and having the outpost you're in be populated that day.

I know personally that if I could make the same amount of profit/reward/drops from playing through the Prophecies campaign as I could relentlessly farming the UW, I would absolutely choose to do the campaign again. But as it is now, the reward potential of taking my 2000 hour old lvl 20 through yet another UW run far outstrips the reward potential of taking a lvl 1 character through Prophecies.

And whether people like Yelling wish to believe it or not, people are reward motivated especially in games like GW where the only PvE motivation after beating the game the first time is generally to upgrade the looks of your characters.

Lastly, just to make it clear, when I say reward ratio and drop adjustment, I'm NOT solely advocating allowing "noobs" to have FoW mats by the time they reach Sanctum Cay, as so many seem to focus on in reward discussions, I simply mean that over the course of normal play, one could reliably expect to see nice drops, rather than the "random" drop system now, where it takes thousands of runs and hours for the drop rate to smooth out. A player should NOT be rewarded after a two hour slog through a HM dungeon with a balanced PUG that was frustrating to deal with with a diamond and onyx or two.

But just to be clear, the crux of the idea is to make the WHOLE game rewarding and enticing to play, rather than just the elite areas.

FoxBat · Mar 24, 2010, 02:43 AM // 02:43

If you want to improve pugging, Zaishen is the right idea. More equal rewards is the exact opposite - it spreads everyone out in their own area doing their own thing - while concentrating them in a few elite areas or a daily quest makes coop more likely.

EragonSorceror · Mar 24, 2010, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Lol, no, nothing that stupid.

The same people who have been playing since the game's inception still play the Elite areas (or some do, whatever). The reason they stick to these areas, and others like Zaishen missions and such, is because the rewards (ectos, Zaishen coins, etc.) are much more valuable than say, slogging to the far western side of the Maguuma jungle in HM......

.....Basically it would breathe life back into stale areas. The whole Zaishen mission concept is a microcosm of this idea, increasing the reward potential of "stale" areas, which I thought was somewhat obvious and the basis for my idea.....

....And whether people like Yelling wish to believe it or not, people are reward motivated especially in games like GW where the only PvE motivation after beating the game the first time is generally to upgrade the looks of your characters....

...But just to be clear, the crux of the idea is to make the WHOLE game rewarding and enticing to play, rather than just the elite areas.

All right, I'm starting to see where you are coming from. I like the idea of global Z-Quest type rewards. The important good points of Z-Quest rewards are:

1. They are fixed. You always know what you are going to get, which makes it easy to decide whether or not you want to put the time and effort into obtaining them. You will never be disappointed.

2. They scale with the difficulty of the task. You wont get more ectos in HM, but you will get more Z-coins.

3. They are unique. They do not diminish the value of existing items. IMO this is the most important difference between your original idea and Z-Quests.

Create a system that takes advantage of these three elements and I think you have gone a long way towards your goals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

And whether people like Yelling wish to believe it or not, people are reward motivated especially in games like GW where the only PvE motivation after beating the game the first time is generally to upgrade the looks of your characters.

QFT. Humans are reward motivated in any situation like this. It may not make logical sense to some people that you can be reward motivated by pixels, but the real "reward" is proving that you are better than another player. Platinum is PvE's way of keeping score.

Turbo Ginsu · Mar 24, 2010, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

But if ANet changes up the reward/drop scale such that you'd get about the same amount of rewards per unit time no matter WHERE you played, then a lot of the game would open up to more players.

This is the point I tried to make a while back when I mentioned the NwN loot scale system. Because everything drops everywhere, as a result, you don't see a lot of concentrated farm areas, and you tend to see people everywhere..

Bryant Again · Mar 24, 2010, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

If you want to improve pugging, Zaishen is the right idea. More equal rewards is the exact opposite - it spreads everyone out in their own area doing their own thing - while concentrating them in a few elite areas or a daily quest makes coop more likely.

This I agree with.

Yelling @ Cats · Mar 24, 2010, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

If you want to improve pugging, Zaishen is the right idea. More equal rewards is the exact opposite - it spreads everyone out in their own area doing their own thing - while concentrating them in a few elite areas or a daily quest makes coop more likely.

If you want to improve pugging you have to increase the intelligence of the average player.

95% of the game is EASIER done with H/H than it is with PuGs. In fact, going with H/H is better than setting up guild runs since there is no downtime, no waiting, and if you have to go piss, not everyone is slowed down.

Making Maguuma profitable isn't going to increase PuGs any more than the nerf to Crippling Shot. Anyone who thinks it will is either totally naive, or completely dumb.

The only thing that making Maguuma as profitable as FoW would do is make people that have an itch to play in Maguuma happier...when in reality, the people who have an itch to play in Maguuma should just play in Maguuma.

Kaleban · Mar 24, 2010, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

If you want to improve pugging you have to increase the intelligence of the average player.

95% of the game is EASIER done with H/H than it is with PuGs. In fact, going with H/H is better than setting up guild runs since there is no downtime, no waiting, and if you have to go piss, not everyone is slowed down.

Making Maguuma profitable isn't going to increase PuGs any more than the nerf to Crippling Shot. Anyone who thinks it will is either totally naive, or completely dumb.

The only thing that making Maguuma as profitable as FoW would do is make people that have an itch to play in Maguuma happier...when in reality, the people who have an itch to play in Maguuma should just play in Maguuma.

So I posit this question to the human brick wall:

Why then does the majority of the userbase play ONLY in areas with high rewards, such as UW/FoW/DoA/etc.? Is it simply a coincidence that everyone's favorite area is also the area with the highest reward ratio in the game? I mean, there must be a reason, since according to your logic people are not motivated by rewards, and those that think so are as you said naive or stupid...

[edit] For further clarification, look at the "whatever happened to Sorrow's Furnace" thread. Many peeps in there advocate redoing the loot tables for chests, changing or upping the rewards to get people interested in the area again etc.

Bottom line is, make an area rewarding, people will play it. This usually means unique rewards (ectos, boss greens/golds, rare skins, etc.) that cannot be acquired elsewhere. I remember playing endlessly for a set of Dragon Scythes for my Sin in Kurzick areas I might not have otherwise played.

Lanier · Mar 24, 2010, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

So I posit this question to the human brick wall:

Why then does the majority of the userbase play ONLY in areas with high rewards, such as UW/FoW/DoA/etc.? Is it simply a coincidence that everyone's favorite area is also the area with the highest reward ratio in the game? I mean, there must be a reason, since according to your logic people are not motivated by rewards, and those that think so are as you said naive or stupid...

I think what he is trying to say is that not EVERYONE is reward motivated. Sure there are a lot of people who play only in the UW/FoW/DoA/etc., but there are also a lot of people who could but who dont. At least that is what I got from his post. However, I would say that everyone is different and saying someone is illogical because they are motivated by rewards is just as stupid as saying someone is illogical because they play the game for fun, not for the rewards.

That said, I think the reason why we sometimes assume that the majority of the game is the portion that does UW/FoW farms and SCs and that is motivated only by getting as much internetgold as possible is because that portion of players tends to be the loudest and most outspoken. I would bet that there are many more of them on forums like this than there are players who play for fun rather than rewards. Also, it is natural that they are the ones more likely to ask for more rewards... because that is what motivates them. When you have one group of players asking for more rewards, and the other group of players remaining quiet because they are content with the reward system, of course one would assume that the louder group that is more visible on forums and that asks for more is going to be a bigger majority of the population.

I dont know for sure what the proportion of reward-driven FoWers/UWers to fun driven do-what-we-wanters is, but I would guess that it is actually pretty close. Therefore, you cant make generalizations that assume that:

Quote:

everyone's favorite area is also the area with the highest reward ratio in the game

or that

Quote:

Humans are reward motivated in any situation like this.

or this

Quote:

Platinum is PvE's way of keeping score.

because really, all of us have different tastes. I, being in the group that is driven by the fun factor, am fine with having increased rewards. It wouldnt affect the fun of playing the game. I just think that Anet should be focusing more on fixing the gameplay rather than the rewards. To use an example: Rather than increasing the value of the chest drops at the end of a dungeon, I would like to see Anet make the gameplay leading up to the chest drop more fun. This is all assuming, of course, that we are trying to increase the motivation to do said dungeon.

Kaleban · Mar 24, 2010, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I would like to see Anet make the gameplay leading up to the chest drop more fun. This is all assuming, of course, that we are trying to increase the motivation to do said dungeon.

The problem with your contention is that you're asking ANet to change the gameplay, which is impossible. The gameplay is based on the engine, ANet can add more monsters, change skillbars around, but at the end of the day, the game will play EXACTLY the same as it did before.

GW2 might add in flying mounts, variable elevation, swimming etc. these are all gameplay changes but require new base programming. To do this in GW1 would require updating the engine to the GW2 version or a hybrid inbetween and would take vast amounts of work compared to any other game changing alterations.

By altering the reward system, you add incentives (basically the carrot at the end of the stick) for players to re-visit old areas. Regardless of what people would LIKE to think, the majority of the game is dead for the vast amount of players. I can take a character and randomly zone in to outposts throughout all three main games and EoTN, but the only ones that have more than five or six people at any one time are UW/FoW outposts, certain dungeon areas, the trade zones (Spamadan) and Zaishen mission/Isle of Balthazar and PvP areas.

The rest of the game is dead. As I've said multiple times, this isn't because the playerbase is morally opposed to playing in HM Maguuma, or that the Crystal Desert is itchy because sand gets everywhere, its due to the reward/time ratio being so much lower there than the few places mentioned above.

Believe it or not, the fact is humans are reward motivated (tangible or fun, but after playing the game for four years, how much "fun" reward is there to be had in re-playing the same areas the umpteenth time?) and follow the path of least resistance, hence the prevalence of speed clears and such. You can claim its not right and that you don't denigrate yourself by doing so, but you're the absolute small minority.

And I can make generalizations, cause see, I just did again. Everyone may have different tastes, but they're usually just variations on the same theme. And usually, games like GW and other MMOs cater to a playerbase that has similar tastes, hence the same grind based gameplay and item hunt.

Lanier · Mar 24, 2010, 05:14 PM // 17:14

well believe it or not, your generalizations arent true. You intend to categorize all players as reward motivated because you contend that all humans are reward motivated.

Quote:

the fact is humans are reward motivated and follow the path of least resistance, hence the prevalence of speed clears and such.

You say that all players are reward motivated, which is evidence by the prevalence of speed clears? That proves nothing really. While speed clears are common, They are not the only thing that people do in PvE. First you have to reduce the number of people who speed clear for the fun factor (in other words, they speed clear because they enjoy it and they would continue to do it even without the rewards). This is probably a very small portion of the speed clearers/farmers out there, but I have heard many times people say that they enjoy the activity of doing the speed clear or doing the farm. I would say that if you take all of the Speed clearers and subtract this small portion, you would probably be left with around half of the PvE population.

What I am trying to say is that you grostly overestimate the amount of players who speed clear. Therefore, you cant say that all humans are reward based when not all of the players in this game are speed clears out mainly for the rewards.

Quote:

but after playing the game for four years, how much "fun" reward is there to be had in re-playing the same areas the umpteenth time?

Well that would largely depend on what number "the umpteenth time" stands for, and how long it has been since you last played it. I tend to take extended breaks (~4 months) from time to time, and when I come back, I tend to find that those areas are a lot more fun to play. Regardless, this isnt the point I was trying to make. The point is that not all areas are necessarily "fun", like you say, which is why I was offering the suggestion of improving gameplay.

On the topic of gameplay, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Im not suggesting they change the engine of GW1. What I am suggesting is making changes so that going through a dungeon would not feel repetitive. Skill updates are a mini example of this. When you get to go through a dungeon with new skills, its a little bit different and a little bit fresher. A better example would be changing up enemies encountered, making it so you can bring 7 heroes, making it so you can control your heroes in the field like you can control your player character, and other miscellanious changes like that that can freshen up a random mission, dungeon, or vanquish.

Quote:

Everyone may have different tastes, but they're usually just variations on the same theme.

Uh... no. People's tastes are not necessarily variations on the same theme, as is evidenced by the differences between me and you. You can believe otherwise all you want, but that doesnt make it true.

Yelling @ Cats · Mar 24, 2010, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

but after playing the game for four years, how much "fun" reward is there to be had in re-playing the same areas the umpteenth time?

Then don't you think, you know, it's time to hang up the hat?

I mean, you're not making any sense. You are saying that nothing in the game is any fun, but increasing rewards to places like Maguuma is going to somehow improve your gaming. How is it going to improve your gaming if you already don't enjoy Maguuma?

EragonSorceror · Mar 24, 2010, 07:57 PM // 19:57

I still maintain that the vast majority of humans are reward motivated. You may not care about accumulating platinum, but I guarantee that you "do-what-ever-you-wanters" are chasing some kind of reward or accomplishment. I haven't heard of anyone who plays that is not trying to earn titles, platinum, or some other, more personal, accomplishment. I'm not saying that they don't exist, just that they are a very small minority and a large game should not cater to them. Neither should a large game cater to the people who are trying to achieve a more personal accomplishment. These kind of people will find something to work towards no matter what the game provides them. Title grinders do not need to be catered to either, as they are completely satisfied with what they have (what could you do for them?). This just leaves the people in it for the platinum.

Quote:

I tend to take extended breaks (~4 months)

Is this really what you want for the Guild Wars community? To be missing for months at a time so they can find the game even remotely interesting when they come back?

Kaleban · Mar 24, 2010, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

well believe it or not, your generalizations arent true. You intend to categorize all players as reward motivated because you contend that all humans are reward motivated.

They are. Read up on human psychology before you debate what drives humanity.

I guarantee that if tomorrow ANet removed all rewards from the game (and by all I mean ALL customization, economy, items and gear, titles, PvP rewards et al), the playerbase would vanish.

Why? Because without the chance to acquire something beyond the experience (literally and figuratively) from killing the same monster for the trillionth time, no one would play. This applies to both PvP and PvE by the way.

Argue the contrary all you want, but the simple fact is ALL humans are reward motivated, you're just confused over what constitutes a reward.

And @ Yelling, you just don't get it do you? Can you even read? This discussion is about what would improve the replayability of the whole game, not what each individual player should do. I have also NOT claimed that nothing in the game is any fun, I've simply stated my case that increasing or adjusting the reward ratio of the game would cause more players to migrate to different areas.

I have at no time stated that changing the rewards will IMPROVE gameplay, as that would require alterations to the game engine and how the game is played. What I HAVE claimed is that by changing the reward ratio of various areas ANet would be extending the "carrot on a stick" formula to more than just the Elite and Zaishen mission areas, which would again cause players to move to other areas.

Before you respond, understand this crucial difference. If you can't, and are inclined to just reiterate your stance of players leaving, then don't even bother because that has nothing to do with the discussion.

Tenebrae · Mar 24, 2010, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Then don't you think, you know, it's time to hang up the hat?

I mean, you're not making any sense. You are saying that nothing in the game is any fun, but increasing rewards to places like Maguuma is going to somehow improve your gaming. How is it going to improve your gaming if you already don't enjoy Maguuma?

You also said that nothing in the game is rewarding or fun so lets delete it and close the servers right ? no dude.
This thing is about balance , not a scream for "omg gimme ectos in maguuma" or "increase chance of BDS +50% i want one!" , this is about BALANCING the rewards between time/effort/mode . Balance is universal , dont think about "yeah , if i balance that , what do i get , more fun ?". Is not about giving something to players or keeping players in GW or making the game easier/wealthier/funnier , is about making rewards FAIR.
It is unbalanced and thats a fact you cant deny , if you played the game for its entire content ( yes , all areas including elites ) you would see it. Hell , same number of gold drops in dungeons end chests for a lvl 1 dungeon than a lvl 5 ? oh cmon , REALLY ?.
This game isnt perfect and for some ppl is not funny anymore but thats not a reason to give up balance and delete servers. Even if that balance means NO CHANGE in number of players its still fair and logical so it must be done.

There are other logical changes to be made and most of them are not going to happen and maybe this is one of those but i gotta tell you , if more rewards are added in order to balance some places , i can tell for sure that playerbase number WONT decrease ..... but increase instead in some areas. This change can only bring good things.

Grunntar · Mar 24, 2010, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Why then does the majority of the userbase play ONLY in areas with high rewards, such as UW/FoW/DoA/etc.? Is it simply a coincidence that everyone's favorite area is also the area with the highest reward ratio in the game?

Challenge. For "seasoned" (skilled) players, anyways. They keep doing it time and again because there is at least some challenge for them. (Casual players tend to end up in areas that are somewhere just below their failure threshold, such as FoW.) I agree that money may draw them initially, but the challenge keeps them playing. To your point, though, many people complained about the rewards (drops) when they released DoA. But it never really improved, yet even you admit this is one of the places that people gravitate toward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Many peeps in there advocate redoing the loot tables for chests, changing or upping the rewards to get people interested in the area again etc.

Well sure! Who isn't going to want more money and bright shiny objects! But if you just add more cash to the area, how long will that last? Challenge, I say, challenge...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Because without the chance to acquire something beyond the experience (literally and figuratively) from killing the same monster for the trillionth time, no one would play. This applies to both PvP and PvE by the way.

Umm, huh? PvP is *all* about the experience. And dare I say, the Challenge! And it is just killing the same people, over and over. Then you start a new match, and kill those people over and over... Are you saying that it only exists because of the Zkeys that people get out of it? And how did it survive before we had Zkeys?

Lanier · Mar 24, 2010, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by EragonSorceror

Is this really what you want for the Guild Wars community? To be missing for months at a time so they can find the game even remotely interesting when they come back?

Uh... no... I never advocated that position at all. I never even hinted that I was advocating that position. I merely said that I have done this in the past to support another argument.

Quote:

They are. Read up on human psychology before you debate what drives humanity.

I guarantee that if tomorrow ANet removed all rewards from the game (and by all I mean ALL customization, economy, items and gear, titles, PvP rewards et al), the playerbase would vanish.

Why? Because without the chance to acquire something beyond the experience (literally and figuratively) from killing the same monster for the trillionth time, no one would play. This applies to both PvP and PvE by the way.

Argue the contrary all you want, but the simple fact is ALL humans are reward motivated, you're just confused over what constitutes a reward.

I'll admit that I am not professional in the field of psychology. Are you? If so, I will give into your argument that humanity is reward based, though I would need your definition of a "reward" first. I know from personal experience that a lot of what drives me and my guildies to play the game is just getting the opportunity to go out and VQ an area or play through some of the storyline with each other. Its fun. We get to socialize in ts, we dont pressure each other to use any certain build, and we do it because it is fun. We don't do the same stuff over and over again, because like you said, "killing the same monster for the trillionth time" is not something we fine fun. However, we arnt particularly getting rewarded for our efforts either.

So what I am trying to say is that I am fine with Anet increasing rewards and all that. I couldnt care less. It wouldnt make me happy and it wouldnt make me unhappy. What I would like to see is new ways to freshen up doing missions and quests and just going about killing stuff.

Kaleban · Mar 24, 2010, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I'll admit that I am not professional in the field of psychology. Are you? If so, I will give into your argument that humanity is reward based, though I would need your definition of a "reward" first.

A reward is any sort of compensation for actions taken. What form the compensation takes is up to the rewarder, and its perceived value by the rewardee. Many arguments have been made over whether humanity can ever be truly altruistic for example, or if each good act also comes with a subconscious expectation of some form of recompense.

Quote:

I know from personal experience that a lot of what drives me and my guildies to play the game is just getting the opportunity to go out and VQ an area or play through some of the storyline with each other. Its fun. We get to socialize in ts, we dont pressure each other to use any certain build, and we do it because it is fun. We don't do the same stuff over and over again, because like you said, "killing the same monster for the trillionth time" is not something we fine fun. However, we arnt particularly getting rewarded for our efforts either.

And yet you are! Your reward takes many forms just in this paragraph alone. Socialization, lack of pressure from bad PUGs, material rewards of vanquishing, the fun of playing in groups who know each others' capabilities, etc. If none of these things were possible by playing the game, its highly unlikely you would continue to play.

And hence, my idea/suggestion to increase or balance rewards throughout the gameworld. Its much easier to determine that material rewards are not in balance, than the fun quotient, as for many that's individual taste. Balancing rewards is a way to make a larger part of the game more fun or attractive for a larger amount of people, such as noobs and PUGs and H/Hers. If all areas are equally financially attractive, then the human propensity to find the quickest reward in the shortest amount of time will even out over the whole gameworld, thus keeping players interested in currently abandoned areas and potentially attracting new players.

Quote:

So what I am trying to say is that I am fine with Anet increasing rewards and all that. I couldnt care less. It wouldnt make me happy and it wouldnt make me unhappy. What I would like to see is new ways to freshen up doing missions and quests and just going about killing stuff.

While it may not affect you or some like Yelling specifically, it would have a broad impact on the playerbase at large, and whether you want to admit or not, the idea of getting more loot most likely appeals to you.

As for gameplay changes, I've said before there are engine limitations. I don't find skill balancing to really upset gameplay, since its basically switching out tools to accomplish the same task. Changing quests, making new ones and such would be a good way to update content, maybe even allow the community to submit quest ideas in the hopes they get "published" into the game.

I doubt that with ANet's current activities though, that ANY of my ideas will be moved to the front burner, but one can always discuss it!

@Grunntar, PvP is an entirely different reward system. Yes you have the same rewards like titles and such, or unlocking PvP equipment with points, but it boils down to the age old Conan quote, "Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the women!"

That is a reward in and of itself, the thrill of competition and the rush of victory over one's opponent. Not to mention the satisfaction of coordinating teams, working as part of a team, and the visceral thrill of a beatdown!

BUT its still gameplay that REWARDS the player.

EragonSorceror · Mar 24, 2010, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Uh... no... I never advocated that position at all. I never even hinted that I was advocating that position. I merely said that I have done this in the past to support another argument.

In your post it suggested, to me at least, that this was an proper solution for game stagnancy. My question was rhetorical, aiming to simply highlight the idea that this should not be acceptable or needed in a good game (not that I think Guild Wars is a bad one). I am sorry if you feel that you have been misquoted, and I'm sorry it seemed like I was personally attacking you.

Grunntar · Mar 25, 2010, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

PvP... That is a reward in and of itself, the thrill of competition and the rush of victory over one's opponent. Not to mention the satisfaction of coordinating teams, working as part of a team, and the visceral thrill of a beatdown!

This is where you lose me. You have those same elements in PvE... So it's *your* perception that makes the difference. You perceive a different challenge in PvP than in PvE. In PvP, that challenge is enough to satisfy you, no? But in PvE it's not? True, AI is dumber, but that doesn't mean there are no challenges, and no coordination or teamwork. But those challenges don't provide enough gratification, so you need to substitute it with virtual loot to make your entertainment complete...?

This is where you lose me...

Kaleban · Mar 25, 2010, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grunntar

This is where you lose me. You have those same elements in PvE... So it's *your* perception that makes the difference. You perceive a different challenge in PvP than in PvE. In PvP, that challenge is enough to satisfy you, no? But in PvE it's not? True, AI is dumber, but that doesn't mean there are no challenges, and no coordination or teamwork. But those challenges don't provide enough gratification, so you need to substitute it with virtual loot to make your entertainment complete...?

This is where you lose me...

So are you saying you would play PvE even if no loot dropped... ever?

There are some similarities between PvE and PvP, such as killing stuff, and faction/XP. But that's where it ends.

In PvP, you are competing against real people. Its like playing chess against a real opponent vs. the computer, no matter how many times you play a human, there's always a different challenge, and overcoming that challenge is a reward in and of itself. Playing the AI of a chess game over and over is boring as hell, since even on the hardest difficulties, there's no innovation, no risk taking, and once you learn the algorithms, a cakewalk.

GW follows the same pattern, as do many online MMOs. The PvP reward is the satisfaction of defeating different opponents with varied skillsets, both gamewise (the actual skillbar) and player execution. The reason PvE has a loot system, drops, an economy, and in many cases a player crafting system and auction/trade houses is that these material rewards are a tangible replacement for the PvP thrill.

Beating down your 11 millionth orc/goblin/charr in PvE is not going to be as fun as beating your 11 millionth PvP opponent, because its always possible for players to innovate, not so the AI.

I still can't believe I'm explaining the basics of a PvP/PvE reward structure to Guru posters, its pretty self evident I would think. Its not about my perception, the rewards of PvE are VASTLY different than the rewards of PvP, if they weren't, then there would be no need for the two different game modes, and developers would stick to whichever mode sucks in the most players and their money.